Dale Carnegie training and Critique to Astrology: a reply from Astrologer Kimball (part I and II)


I joined the Carnegie’s training last year, and it was subsequent the results I got during and after the training. The training for me, deals with the polarity of emotions and the detachment from it. The Cancer-Capricorn axis. Well, some astrologers believe it to be the hardest opposition of the whole zodiac. I enjoyed so much the training and I loved my class, by the end of the training I realized I was surrounded with full genius people! And now I am being an agent for the next class to inspire, the trainer was also non-judgmental kind of person in which helped the flow of limit zone of the group to hallucinate in expected results, in favorable ways using of precautions opinions. However, Carnegie wasn’t kind of welcoming for debating astrology, he was a consistent skeptical and used of sarcasm to explain why it doesn’t work. I’ll try to use astrology for getting inside his skeptical mentality. I even thought during the training that who created it knew something about astrology, but it was quite the opposite.

I haven’t yet read anything official about Dale Carnegie’s critique towards astrology but in a book from astrologer Sidney Kimball Bennettca aka Wynn, an astrologer that was younger than Carnegie that started professionally at his 23’s around the year of 1915.  Making them part of the same Pluto and Neptune in Gemini Generation.

What is the training about?

Trough his principles he describes in my particular view, a well structured rules of relationship that in practice are of a great tool to convince people of your ideas, their collaboration and attention, and those are the very tools he gives in a logically organized order for the individual in practice to establish him or herself the principles giving the opportunity to apply during and after the training.

The training has 5 objectives plausible for the individual choose freely, usually it is something they lack in ability (Wikipedia):

  1. 1.       Build greater self-confidence
  2. 2.       Strengthen people skills
  3. 3.       Enhance communication skills
  4. 4.       Develop leadership skills
  5. 5.       Improve our attitude and reducing stress

As people who had the training know, the classes are divided in 12 days (the Zodiac have 12 signs and houses). We are told to trust each other and not to tell outside what happens inside, and I will keep that way. The classes begin in circle in which I suspected the structure of the methodology was intelligent enough to directly reach our psychological responses in the immediate environment; to each other and to the trainer that is standing the whole class (and that for me was a perfect opportunity to imagine people’s rising sign). Linking directly to astrology, I had it as the training has personalized activities, one deal with business (Capricorn), the other, the personal (Cancer). At the beginning I remember I felt I was in group therapy, I’ve never been to one, but I imagine it would look like that, cause the subject  of attention is always yourself and second, the others. This is as far as I can go in details. A ritual takes place.

Who was Dale Carnegie – Astrology

“Fear doesn’t exist anywhere except in the mind.” – Dale C.

 Dale was a poor farms boy, with a dream to become a famous actor. Copied from Wikipedia:

It was there that he got the idea to teach public speaking, and he persuaded the “Y” manager to allow him to instruct a class in return for 80% of the net proceeds. In his first session, he had run out of material; improvising, he suggested that students speak about “something that made them angry”, and discovered that the technique made speakers unafraid to address a public audience”.

He was a pioneer. At the time his first debut worked in 1912, he started winning more people for his classes, and he was then a famous person. Jupiter (opportunity) those years was conjunction his Venus (pleasure) + Mars (drive) conjunction in Capricorn (ambition), and Neptune was dancing with his possible Moon in Cancer and South Node (past life’s) in Cancer, giving him the experience of being already ‘there’ and speaking with such fluency. By that time Dale even changed adapt his own name (Neptune opposite Sun= loosing sense of self) to the officially Carnegie. When he was known for the best seller in from his book How to Win Friends and Influence People (1936) Jupiter that year was entering Capricorn again, the lucky planet that expands and gives you the opportunity to do it again but it with feelings. At this time, Dale became the most famous writer of self-help in the world. Pluto was opposing this strong conjunction and was dancing too with his possible Moon in Cancer, if not, was definitely doing it with his North Node.

Sometimes come to the media Dale Carnegie was the father (Saturn) of the public speaking and leadership training, a self-help stuff (and I don’t like the way self-help nowadays sounds, nevertheless I assumed to myself it wouldn’t work if I didn’t want it to). The training is a model and influence in the business sphere for development and improvement in the area of human relationship and leadership, it helps you relate to others in a harmonious way. Dale had Uranus in Libra (geniality in diplomacy) exact sextile to Saturn in Leo (excel in business performances) almost by 0º00 exact but was ahead with 0º02’, after all he wrote books of how to get ahead (Uranus) in business (Saturn):

Dale Carnegie Natal Chart

He was a very enthusiastic man according to his biography, and used to be very convincing in his ideas, and in his quoting he showed to be a very confident persona. Dale’s Sun (ego) was conjunction Jupiter (expander) in the “I know the truth” – Sagittarius, and this strong aspect was opposed the generational planets Pluto (fear) and Neptune (illusionist) conjunction in Gemini (words).

While Gemini writes, Sagittarius publishes. In astrology, Gemini is ruled by Mercury and much of them in a chart means a person that is very gifted in communication, is usually very clever, good talker and well-informed individual. Dale’s Mercury was in Scorpio (investigating mind) square Saturn in Leo, a business man proud of his own self-made methods.

“Become genuinely interested in other people” – Dale C.

Unfortunately with no birth-time is not possible to calculate angles and the moon. But I suspect he had a Cancer Moon (moody emotions) that was just after a conjunction to the North Node (life’s path), and a strong aspect like this to the nodes is of a great contrast to the others in life in general as they usually sense there are more special than others, or that they have the obligation to mark the world somehow, and this conjunction was opposing all of his Capricorn area: Venus (harmony) + Mars (straightforward) conjunction South Node (gifts from the past) by 0 degree in Capricorn (authority). This configuration shows an example of perseverance in making the mistakes to be your number one in learning, and still be enthusiastic about it.

Capricorn people usually don’t need others to rely upon their duties; they are the ones who will do the job, they don’t wait for others, and in Mars the desire is even stronger to accomplish, because their drive is targeted to fuel their need to work for themselves, and Mars is a pioneer.

Capricorn needs evidence to proof something is true, needs a floor so they can stand and say with confidence what they think of the matter. Capricorn is skeptical, Scorpio is even more. Scorpio trusts intuition, Capricorn in their ability. But Caps need things to be tangible, and the what they touch is what they will likely seen as a proven fact, not words and not intuition, they are too cautious for that. Earth people are usually skeptical of everything they don’t trust; as long as it shows touchable evidence they will give you whiskey with water. However Dales chart shows more of Air than earth. Airy people need to you to discuss with them openly so they can expose their points of view, but they need evidence that are of a more logical mind, if they can’t no longer think in a logical way, they are up to discuss how the other is wrong.

“Are you bored with life? Then throw yourself into some work you believe in with all your heart, live for it, die for it, and you will find happiness that you had thought could never be yours.” – Dale Carnegie

Dale, who passed away in 1955 in his 67’s from Hodgkin’s disease (cancer from white blood), while Moon was crossing his natal Pluto (death) + Neptune (sleep) conjunction and opposing his natal Sun. Carnegie was one of the best sellers of self-development that has sold more than 10 millions copies that are still in present days making its power of influence far from ending, unless a greater adaptation takes place.


Astrologer Kimball

The astrologer was born in 1892 in Chicago, Kimball – a well-known astrologer by astrology society by the technique he developed for predictive system that was later called ‘the key cycle’ (I’ll explore more the subject in further posts), and in regular society because one of his predictive claims came to be true.

The book was written to face off all the arguments that clashes with the idea that astrology doesn’t work: “Astrology: Science of Prediction 1945 – Proofs of the Correspondences Between Man and the Solar System, Reasons Why and Replies to False Arguments by Critics Who Have Not Studied This Science”. – By Sidney K Bennettca.

The critique and the Answer – Astrology

The reply wasn’t just for Dale Carnegie, he cited others and wrote about the many letters criticizing astrology. You can see the part of the book online here (link) on page 149, Dale says that people shouldn’t spend money on people who tells you they can foretell the future. I don’t doubt the connection to the same principle to astrology, which is basically the same: to foretell results if the tool is right executed. But he didn’t believe the stars, he needed people to express and talk with no detriment; he was about theory and practice at the same time, astrology would give him too many variables tools and less expected results.

Dale says about astrology having a bad reputation for not even being in any study program in school or universities.

Along the book there is a part where Dale cited an example of how astrology doesn’t work by putting astrologers around the world with the same birth data so they should describe what they saw in their professional area, all of them was incorrect. Dale took the result seriously as an offensive and a waste of time practice. Wynn replies saying that Dale perhaps didn’t grasp the man who was in the army was there because he could only do but shot a gun.

Astrologer Wynn is obviously very affected by his prejudices, but I have to agree with both: Don’t waste time on other people’s opinion… I would add: unless it really helps you. He also talks about the way Dale think he knows all the answer, I think he was seriously pointing to Dale’s Sun conjunction Jupiter ‘thing’.

Wynn says that Dale with his apparent skeptical side alarming had just insulted the psychiatry profession, because astrology is also valid for verifying human behavior in general.

Interesting thing is that astrologer Wynn wrote about Dale natal Sun opposition Neptune, and Sun trine Moon. Indicating perhaps Dale had indeed a Moon in Leo, and not Cancer as I imagines, unless he wasn’t talking about an exact, the Moon was then in the last degrees Cancer.

Wynn replied the whole letter. In the end, it was a matter of who was right and wrong in their own terms, but one had studied the subject as a profession.

Dale said that he didn’t believe in astrology, but when I saw this very quoting of his, somehow I immediately thought of his strong generational Gemini opposing his personal Sun in Sagittarius:

“The ideas I stand for are not mine. I borrowed them from Socrates. I swiped them from Chesterfield. I stole them from Jesus. And I put them in a book. If you don’t like their rules whose would you use?”

According to astro-databank, the chart below is correct in birth-time, since the site verifies the time as A:

Wynn Natal Chart

The first thing I saw was the opposition of Wynn Sun and Dale Saturn by 1º degree. The Sun irradiate the fears of failure of Saturn, and Saturn restrains the flames of the Sun. People with this aspect are usually hard with themselves. Wynn was an Aquarius astrologer of the time, and had the generational planets Pluto conjunction Neptune in exact aspect, and it was conjunction by 1º degree Dale’s Pluto in Gemini, the result if the two aren’t in the same dynamic is one intoxicate the other by the power of the word, and the debate is really interesting between them. Wynn had the action Mars in fiery Sagittarius at 10 º degrees, and was after and hunting Dale’s opinion on the subject, Dale Jupiter was in the truth teller Sagittarius at 14º degrees.

The reply was written in August of 1939, Saturn had just entered Taurus ready to conjoin the planet of astrology Uranus, and Pluto was back and forth in early Leo making a stellium that month with Sun, Venus and Mercury in Leo, about to give Dale the power of authority trough the next years of his life, due to his success, as it was conjunction his Saturn in Leo topics. Jupiter was in Aries, giving Wynn Ascendant a boost of confidence in the personality and reply straight-forwards the letters or criticism.

 Dale and Hitler Generation – Astrology

For better understanding of how heavy this generation impacted (Pluto) the ideals of the masses (Neptune) trough ideas (Gemini) by their own proud convictions (Saturn in Leo), I’ll bring Hitler to the board. Dale Carnegie was born 1 year before Hitler, meaning he was born in the same generation that shows in their charts: Neptune the planet of Glamour and utopia in the sign of the multiply personality Gemini conjunction the power planet and shared resources Pluto in Gemini. Astrologer Wynn was born some years later but he still got the creative generational aspect continued and with a more exact conjunction of Pluto and Neptune by 0 degree. Dale was born in 1888, Hitler in 1889 and Wynn in 1892.

This was a strong generation that marked the world some way or another during those rough times. Uranus (eccentric/genius) in Libra (relationship) also made strong aspects to personal planets to their charts. Let’s not forget mentioning the Saturn (father) in Leo (conviction) in harmonious aspects to the generational planets, foreseeing the authority figures they later became, without restraining themselves in their intellectual resources.

From the idea that Jeff Green points out in his book about evolutionary aspects of the soul that is regularly mentioned here, both Dale and Hitler had North Node in Cancer. Indicating that Pluto in Gemini would obsessively let them relate to words as a form of pure expression, they would feel the urge to name the universe according to what they felt fit, they often loose their sense between what is the truth and what are just options, and once mastered the energy they could build intense ability of communication in order for one to have what it wants at the moment it wishes. North node in Cancer here plays strong in their manipulation ability to get what it wants trough ways that are usually nurturing for their sides. Neptune would play strong but subtle in the use of glamorizing power (conjunction to Pluto) and investigating people’s ideals to the core. Dale and Hitler had different personalities and views about the world, one was a leader and knew how to teach and pass the gift away to others, while the other was a leader that showed no positive vibration to its skills and humanity, however both had something in common: they were convinced people who convinced people by their ideas for better or worse.

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